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Post by Dj Brierly on Aug 29, 2018 11:46:01 GMT
Ben - thanks for the great instruction this past summer at the mid-range class. It put me on the right path and confirmed a lot practices learned. My question may be one of preference but I'm looking at a new build and want want to ask your preference of a 6.5 creedmoor versus a 260 remington. I had the 260 Rem on my wish list for a long time but the popularity of the 6.5 cdm has me 2nd guessing this. Thank you, John John, the choice between the two is not much difference in performance. The Creedmoor has more factory loading for long range target shooting if that is a consideration. The longer neck makes it a little easier reloading also. But if you want a 260 I don’t think you will notice a huge difference one way or the other. Hope this answers your question.
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Post by Voss on Sept 21, 2018 19:38:55 GMT
John,
Sorry for the delay in responding, but DJ answered exactly as I would have.
The question between the two is not based on performance, at least not much performance. Initially I saw just as many .260s as I did 6.5CMs. This was because both calibers were relatively new to long range shooting. How Hornady handled the 6.5 Creedmoor lead to it being a clear choice in the market today. Don't confuse this as the .260 Remington being not able to ballistically compete with a 6.5, because they are very, very similar. They both launch the same weight bullets at very similar velocities. It is all about how the two were supported in the market.
The 6.5CM was designed from the start to be a long range cartridge. The .260 Rem was designed as a hunting cartridge. Factory loads for the .260 Remington were initially plentiful, but they were all hunting bullets that were relatively light and marginal accuracy for long range shooting but fine for deer. The 6.5 CM from Hornady was available initially only in long range loads, featuring the 140gr AMAX. Contributing to the success of this was the Hornady loads were very accurate, efficient in flight and priced competitively.
Those that chose the .260 Remington, reloading was the only option for long range loads. Also, the factory rifles chambered for .260 did not have match chambers or fast-twist barrels because they were hunting rifles and the SAAMI drawing for the cartridge (from Remington) was for a hunting-oriented load. The SAAMI drawing for the 6.5 CM is already a match chamber with a fast twist rate. The result was .260 Remington shooters had to have a custom rifle built for long range and reloads, the 6.5 CM was available in some factory rifles ready-to-go for long range(like the Ruger RPR) and good factory LR ammo, ready-to-go.
A quick search for factory rifles and ammo available today in these two calibers clearly shows how the 6.5 has eclipsed the .260 Remington in the market.
I chose the .260 Remington early on (2010). I knew going in I was going to build a custom rifle and reload. It was a flip of a coin decision for me. I am still a huge fan of the .260 Remington and do not feel out-classed against the 6.5 CM. I don't regret the decision. I can still get .260 brass and dies. I will always shoot a custom-built rifle for long range, so no disadvantage there.
If you plan on a custom build, you can choose either one with no penalty. If you reload, the same holds. If you are not building or loading, the 6.5 CM is a turn-key combination that has made it easier and less expensive to make the leap into long range shooting. Today, there are more rifles choices, more ammo choices if factory is your preference. This is because of Hornady's savvy market support of their cartridge, not because it far out-classes the .260 Remington.
Hope this helps and thanks for the question.
Shoot safe, all.
Benjamin Voss
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Post by Bill Schaul on Sept 22, 2018 15:46:23 GMT
I have a Burris Eliminator 3 scope on a Rugar Precision 6.0 Creedmoor. Id like to take the 600 yd class. Will I be able to use the Burris?
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Post by Voss on Sept 24, 2018 13:41:26 GMT
Bill,
I am not terribly familiar with the Burris Eliminator III. Based on a brief website review, it appears as though the scope is a combined laser, ballistic calculator and rifle scope. The device will be making the adjustments and giving a hold instead of you making the adjustment yourself. It will not work very well with some of the drills that we shoot demonstrating the typical scope's use. If the scope's adjustment turrets are not target-type and you cannot turn off the scope's hold over features, it will not be very good for the class, although it may be a very good scope for shooting outside of the class.
Some other questions I have: Does the ballistic calculator allow for real-time input of atmospheric conditions? Does it allow for bullet specific inputs such as BC? Does it allow for rifle specific inputs such as scope height and twist rate?
If the answer is yes to these, then I won't restrict you from using it with one more caveat: you understand the scope's functions completely before the class begins. However, I don't recommend using it in the class as you will lose some of the course content. The material in the class will explain what the scope is doing. You will benefit more from doing it yourself with a conventional target scope first.
I doubt Scott would allow you to use this scope to qualify with. The qualification's purpose is to require the shooter to demonstrate understanding as well as capability. The Eliminator III may not allow for you to demonstrate the understanding portion. It would not be restricted for use on the range after you have qualified. Scott would be the one to answer that.
Hope this helps.
Benjamin Voss
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Post by Bill Schaul on Sept 29, 2018 14:32:27 GMT
Mr. Voss I am disappointed, saddened, and confused by your reply. I won' be renewing my membership. Bill
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Post by John B on Oct 5, 2018 2:22:38 GMT
Ben and DJ - sorry for the slow response but thank you for your time and input. It is very appreaciated. I'll toss a coin between the .260 and 6.5CM and see which way the coin falls. Have a great week, John
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Post by Voss on Oct 11, 2018 22:09:58 GMT
It looks like DJ and I will be conducting another Mid-Range class on November 3rd and 4th. If you are not already on the list, contact Maureen at the club's office. If you are on the list, she should be reaching out to confirm with you that you can attend.
Hopefully the weather is good and we have a full class. If you are attending, please have your rifles zeroed.
Benjamin Voss
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johnfross
New Member
BRRC Member since 1974, NRA Endowment member, NRA Certified instructor in various disciplines
Posts: 7
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Post by johnfross on Oct 24, 2018 12:29:40 GMT
Mr. Voss I am disappointed, saddened, and confused by your reply. I won't be renewing my membership. Bill Is this for real? Mr. Voss is teaching a class where one of the major goals is to impart a thorough understanding of scope adjustment for long ranges, and you want to use a scope that (supposedly) does all that for you. Fair enough, but apparently you want to use the scope in the class without bothering to understand what the scope is doing!He said, and I quote: "If the answer is yes to these [questions about scope inputs], then I won't restrict you from using it with one more caveat: you understand the scope's functions completely before the class begins." Further words escape me... JR
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Post by Voss on Feb 4, 2019 23:15:56 GMT
We will be scheduling a Mid-Range Precision Rifle class for March 30th and 31st. Maureen will be contacting those on the list to see if you can make it. Once she gets 14 students to "yes", she stops. If you are not on the list, please contact Maureen to be put on the list. Classes fill fast. We will conduct mid-range classes as 60 Bench range availability, participant demand and instructor availability dictate. Because the 60 Bench is tied up most weekends through the summer, this may be the only Mid-Range class for several months. Don't miss out!
See above posts for class details and requirements.
Shoot safe, all. Voss
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Post by Voss on Mar 28, 2019 23:54:51 GMT
The weather for the end of March looks cool and damp. Saturday might be raining as we shoot late in the afternoon. Sunday morning is looking better, clear but cool. If you are in the class, come prepared for wet and cool weather. Please have your rifles zeroed before Saturday.
Should be a good time regardless. Looking forward to it. Let me know if you have any last minute questions.
Voss
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Post by Voss on Jun 13, 2019 12:40:23 GMT
Hey shooters,
The next dates for the Mid-Range Class have been set: September 14-15 and October 12-13. Contact the club office for availability for one of these two classes. Please review the equipment requirements at the beginning of this thread or posted on the club website (Training page).
If you have questions about the class other than whether you have a seat, please ask them here. Hope to see you in one of these classes.
Voss
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Post by Voss on Sept 8, 2019 14:27:56 GMT
Hey Shooters,
Our next Mid-Range Class is a week away. Weather looks like it will be good: highs only in the 80s with a small chance for rain each day. If you are on the confirmed class list, please have your rifle zeroed before then. We will shoot on Saturday, so bring all your equipment with you. Class starts at 8:00 AM, please be in the classroom ready to go at that time. Saturday will probably finish around 5:30 PM.
If you have questions between now and then, please ask here or through a PM.
See you then.
Voss
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Post by Pete Strader on Sept 9, 2019 20:05:38 GMT
Mr. Voss:
I am enrolled in the Mid Range Class this coming weekend. I was sighting the scope on my 6.5 Creedmore bolt action rifle this past weekend and experienced a major mechanical failure. As of today, it is being sent back to the manufacturer to be repaired/replaced.
My only option at this time is to use a 6.5 Creedmore, modular frame carbine.
My question is this; since I am forced to use a backup rifle, and it is not a traditional long range rifle can I still take the class.
I am also struggling to get "range time" to get my new longer range scope mounted to this rifle and get it zeroed. I'm hoping to accomplish this by Friday.
Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks in advance.
PS
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Post by Voss on Sept 10, 2019 13:29:45 GMT
Pete,
As long as your back-up rifle is capable of 1 MOA groups and the optic has target or tactical turrets, it should be fine for the class. If it is a semi-auto carbine (AR10 style?) the stock set-up may not be best suited for precision work. If it fails during the class, we usually have spare rifles we can loan to complete the class. They would be .308s though, but you could still get all the content from the class.
Voss
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John (october Midrange class)
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Post by John (october Midrange class) on Oct 14, 2019 1:49:26 GMT
Hello,
If we are trying to determine how far our bullet is going, which impacts TOF, effects of gravity and atmosphere, etc -- we talk about the target being 600 yards away (or whatever we are shooting at). But that is the distance for line of sight -- but the bullet travels along a longer ballistic path, correct? So our bullet is actually going 650 yards (or something longer than 600y line of sight). When would this matter? Do we need to be talking about the actual flight path when we get past 1000 yards?
Thank you again for the great class. I'll try not to bring so much suck to the next class.
John -- .338LM
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